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hi this is JC Hutchins author of the new

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thriller novel 7 son descent in

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bookstores right now and you're

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listening to Australia's finest skeptic

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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show number 54 for the 30th of oktober

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2009 Richard Saunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia on this week's show we

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have a panel recording from dragoncon

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dragon con 2009 with our good friend

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kylie Sturgis Martin bridge stock doctor

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Eugenie Scott and a host of other

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skeptics and they're talking about

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creationism and intelligent design and

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that sort of thing and after that we

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have an interview with the young New

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South Wales scientist of the year Iran

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segev our reporter in his capacity of

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president of Australian skeptics here in

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New South Wales went along to the young

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scientist of the Year award and recorded

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an interview after that our relatively

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new segment from Kylie Sturgis the token

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skeptic keeping you up to date on

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skeptical events upcoming and to wrap up

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the show we have a few little snippets

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out of the radio show dr. ray tea and I

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did here in Sydney on radio 2 GB with

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our good friend Glenn wheeler now if you

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want to hear the full radio appearance

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by dr. HC and myself on 2 GB head for ww

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skeptics on TV and we'll put that link

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in there for you while you're there you

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can check out a video i've posted of me

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and Stefan recording the intro and the

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outro for the last show so without any

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more ado let's get on with this week's

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I'm Carly Sturgis and what follows is a

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recording of a panel discussion from the

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science track at Dragon Con this year

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called Darwin's Bulldogs teachers on the

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front lines this panel was proposed by

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the moderator Matt Lowry who is a high

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school physics teacher and a plant-type

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physics and astronomy college professor

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joining him was myself Carly Sturgis see

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Kevin Barrett a writer and biological

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anthropologist Martin good stock of

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Griffith University and author of the

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forthcoming book beyond belief

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skepticism science and the paranormal

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Barbra Drescher a cognitive psychologist

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and lecturer a california state

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university northridge and our guest of

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honor dr. Eugenie Scott of the National

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Center for Science Education you'll be

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hearing us discuss our experiences with

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creationists and how to effectively

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counter their pseudo-scientific nonsense

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whilst also promoting good science

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education as moderator I just want to

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I've got a little list of questions are

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made with you just kind of take them in

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turn but we can also be sort of

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free-flowing and what not here much of

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the time I think we've all experienced

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that the the whole question and this is

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kind of a biggie to start with so many

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we can chew on us for a little bit the

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whole question of creationism evolution

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so on you'll hear it framed by at least

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creationists in the United States and on

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about other countries but you'll hear

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framed as as you know evolution is

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anti-god and which is anti religion and

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and and and you know you'll sometimes

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get people sort of on the other side to

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that also like maybe Richard Dawkins and

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also kind of 10 a look at it in that

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sense but you know on the probe science

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site so especially in a country that is

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as religious as the United States

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this for some people is kind of a

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powerful argument that I think drives

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them away from science or away from

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expecting evolution and I just wanted to

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get the panel's thoughts on that

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particular point okay well i'll start

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off and dr. scott knows far more about

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this area than i do so if she said I'm

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wrong than believe or not me okay the

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first point I'd make is that if you say

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that evolution is empty god it depends

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on your definition of God and it depends

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what you think God is doing now there is

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a British scientist called Dennis

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Alexander he works on top scientific

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establishment and he is a devoted

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Christian he believes that the Bible is

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the Word of God but for him God is

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constantly responsible for maintaining

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all aspects of the universe so equals

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mc-squared that God if DNA has a double

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helix God is actively maintaining all

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scientific processes all the time now

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therefore from Alexander's point of view

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evolution is one of the processes by

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which God is working in our universe and

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therefore from that viewpoint no

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evolution cannot possibly be auntie God

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because it is actually a design process

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now more generators a misunderstanding

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of science here science generally

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speaking is at this worldly process

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scientists are trying to understand how

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this world works in terms of the

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processes which go on

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in this world because you can't

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understand the dog by definition you

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cannot simply read the mind of God and

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then do a science of how God is going to

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be in the world therefore Sciences human

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process consumer working out how this

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universe works and therefore again for

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that reason science cannot be anti-god

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either I think there's a there's another

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thing going on not just with the concept

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of you know how you define God but also

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a lot of my students when they do

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respond with this is why I don't believe

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in evolution they tell me I don't

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believe in evolution because I believe

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that God created life and that's a

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fundamental misunderstanding of what

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evolution is so the rejecting a theory

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they don't actually understand the

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rejecting something other than the

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theory itself so I think there's two two

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things going on there's a

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misunderstanding of evolution and first

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they have to understand that before they

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can really think about does that

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conflict with my beliefs actually I'm at

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five thirty years of work for the next 5

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30 i'll be giving a talk on intelligent

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for more details go to dr. Scott's call

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the talk will be longer that's that's

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that's the abstract but the first I'm

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the first half of the lecture about is

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going to be about the nature of science

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you know what is science is a no as a

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way of knowing science as an

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epistemology t is the big words and

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basically it's just like this I think

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we're probably all in agreement of your

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science is a way of understanding the

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natural world and there is something

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called methodological naturalism which

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means that we restrict ourselves when we

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were in our scientists at to explain

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through natural causes the reason why we

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restrict ourselves to natural causes is

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because those are the kinds we can test

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and science fundamentally is all about

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testing your explanation that's what

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makes it such a wonderful way of knowing

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it gives us more reliable information

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than any other Vista knowledge okay so

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it's about testing explanations about

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the natural world but how do we test an

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explanation well we hold constant

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certain variables we all kind of it I'm

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going really fast here but you've I in

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seventh grade science so you understand

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this you hold constant certain variables

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this is why we can't let supernatural

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explanations into science and still call

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it science you cannot hold constant

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God's efforts God is omnipotent God can

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stay on the test tube or not going the

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test strip at all I mean you can't put

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God in the testing so you just set that

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aside when you're explaining something

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we restrict ourselves to natural causes

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because those are the only kind of test

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and so for that reason we use naturalism

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as a methodology and I think every

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scientist understands that and every

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scientist does that whether they are

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believers and unbelievers Gregor Mendel

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was a theist obviously but he was also a

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methodological naturalist he came up

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with his rules of genetics solely by

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using natural causes he didn't bring him

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down at all we criticize the intelligent

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design and creationist proponents for

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trying to bring God and decides because

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obviously you can't use god as an

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explaining as an explanation and still

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call it science because can't tesco what

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that means is there's a flip side and

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the flip side is that you also can't say

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science proves God doesn't exist for the

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same reason that you can't use God

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insights God is omnipotent you cannot

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control God's actions you cannot test

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the statements having to do with God you

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have to descend on the side that doesn't

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mean Sciences anti-god any more than

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long division wasn't

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I don't want to come so much of

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mathematics I where I praying sword I

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would pray a lot but never you you you

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know you decide you do none too long

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division based on the natural process of

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mathematics you do science based on

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natural process that doesn't make long

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division anti-religious that doesn't

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make sense interpreters very few people

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think that cell division is an anti

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religious theory but once you're talking

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about human beings once you're talking

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about living things once you're talking

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about important issues that are

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important to people that's when people

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start getting nervous about evolution as

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a sense and I think one of the ways that

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we need to cope with this is be very

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clear about what science is and what it

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isn't science is a way of knowing about

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the natural world and we have to

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restrict ourselves to natural causes

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because those are the only ones who can

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test that's kind of the map will be

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limited across the room it doesn't mean

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that all scientist area

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Master building but it does mean that

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science is a limited with we often don't

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think of science as a limited way of

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life and it's sort of this this head

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robotic presentation of science that

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makes many conservative religious people

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very nervous about science and they

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believe that the state the next

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statement to come out is that well

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therefore take your garden Charlotte and

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that's not my sinuses one of the main

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problems that we have in which has been

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echoed by my colleagues that we with the

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creation and evolution issue is that

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many non-scientists in the community

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believe that they have to choose between

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science and religion if they really

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understand what science is and what it

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is great for and its limitations that is

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not a necessary conclusion to come to

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and I think they'll all be a lot more

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relaxed about about the teaching of

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evolution their kids that's that's a

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great point no I just want to share a

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quick anecdote about how I deal with

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this in my classroom as as a physics

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teacher because when I teach physics I

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always go into cosmology the big bang

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and so on and just so everybody knows if

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you think that creationists only go

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after biological evolution think again

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okay they they are targeting all a lot

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of different areas of science in general

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cosmology geology they're now starting

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to go after neuroscience so it's not

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just talking about no for you know ninth

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grade biology but the way I deal with

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this my classroom is I just I tackled

275
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right up front that's one of the reasons

276
00:12:20,139 --> 00:12:19,040
I made the first questioner I go into my

277
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students and I say look you know we're

278
00:12:25,780 --> 00:12:21,889
going to talk about Big Bang cosmology

279
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cosmic evolution someone I said but this

280
00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:26,779
do you guys got to remember this is a

281
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science classroom here right we're not

282
00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:29,899
talking theology we're not talking

283
00:12:34,180 --> 00:12:31,790
philosophy I you know

284
00:12:35,620 --> 00:12:34,190
you want to get into all of that stuff

285
00:12:40,030 --> 00:12:35,630
you got to take a different course down

286
00:12:42,430 --> 00:12:40,040
the hall and I said and some of you it I

287
00:12:44,620 --> 00:12:42,440
will be explaining the the most current

288
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and best science we have and some of you

289
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may have an internal conflict with your

290
00:12:52,390 --> 00:12:49,520
particular religious or philosophical

291
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beliefs and then I put the onus on the

292
00:12:57,970 --> 00:12:55,400
student because what i say as i say if

293
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you fall into this category if you find

294
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that you have a problem reconciling your

295
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religious beliefs with the science i'm

296
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teaching i leave that up to you to

297
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reconcile well i'm going to assume that

298
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you are a mature enough person that you

299
00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:12,830
can figure it out for yourself because

300
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:14,510
it's not up to me to tell you what to

301
00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:16,730
movie or not believe about God something

302
00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:18,140
to be to teach you science and that's my

303
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:19,670
job that's the way I handle it for

304
00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:23,410
whatever it's worth um any other

305
00:13:28,110 --> 00:13:25,760
comments or questions on this particular

306
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:28,120
point I throw in a little bit sure oh

307
00:13:33,070 --> 00:13:30,890
you know I ended Pierce mean I teach

308
00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:33,080
biological anthropology so not only am I

309
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:34,310
going to ask people to believe in

310
00:13:37,870 --> 00:13:36,290
evolution I'm also going to ask them to

311
00:13:41,050 --> 00:13:37,880
believe that they have a common ancestor

312
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:41,060
with you know monkeys and apes and that

313
00:13:44,050 --> 00:13:42,320
over the course of the last six or so

314
00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:44,060
million years we have evolved from a

315
00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:45,680
primitive state to a slightly more

316
00:13:49,930 --> 00:13:48,530
dancing it appears to me after teaching

317
00:13:52,020 --> 00:13:49,940
this for a number of years that this is

318
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:52,030
much more cultural than it is

319
00:13:56,110 --> 00:13:54,560
histological I think that a scientist we

320
00:13:57,430 --> 00:13:56,120
approach these things as mr. balaji

321
00:13:59,620 --> 00:13:57,440
trying to understand what the nature of

322
00:14:00,820 --> 00:13:59,630
knowledge actually is butta most of our

323
00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:00,830
students are approaching this as a

324
00:14:05,290 --> 00:14:03,470
conflict of culture and your culture is

325
00:14:07,390 --> 00:14:05,300
a set of values and beliefs that you get

326
00:14:09,310 --> 00:14:07,400
is sort of a unit and you're not just

327
00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:09,320
unable to go ahead and pick and choose

328
00:14:14,410 --> 00:14:11,510
what aspects of those culture you can

329
00:14:15,490 --> 00:14:14,420
accept and not accept so in a way it's

330
00:14:17,260 --> 00:14:15,500
that sort of baby with the bathwater

331
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:17,270
argument I think that in most cases

332
00:14:22,540 --> 00:14:20,000
people are feeling like they're put to

333
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:22,550
the point of either accepting everything

334
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:25,490
that I have to say or none of it and as

335
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:26,720
I think most people here would agree

336
00:14:31,990 --> 00:14:28,880
that's really I think that's a sad sort

337
00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:32,000
of a state of affairs just a quick point

338
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:33,150
of order on if you do

339
00:14:36,170 --> 00:14:34,650
question what's and let's belong to them

340
00:14:39,260 --> 00:14:36,180
for a little bit because we will ever do

341
00:14:43,940 --> 00:14:39,270
a nice at the entrance I have something

342
00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:43,950
really important okay I'm taking risk

343
00:14:48,110 --> 00:14:46,590
and doing this but I'm hoping that this

344
00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:48,120
is a friendly audience and they were

345
00:14:53,060 --> 00:14:51,270
serving more than us on my side I may be

346
00:14:56,330 --> 00:14:53,070
making a big mistake this may end up on

347
00:15:02,420 --> 00:14:56,340
YouTube tomorrow I don't believe in

348
00:15:04,430 --> 00:15:02,430
evolution you must set bomb the other

349
00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:04,440
should I just believe in the kinetic

350
00:15:09,530 --> 00:15:06,900
theory of matter I don't believe in cell

351
00:15:11,930 --> 00:15:09,540
division I don't believe Angela centrist

352
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:11,940
politically I think what I do believe

353
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:13,730
and I believe in freedom of speech I

354
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:18,000
believe in June change of the last image

355
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:22,800
i believe that we should do a lot of

356
00:15:28,430 --> 00:15:25,770
things to try to help our planet stay

357
00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:28,440
clean i believe that we should have

358
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:31,230
universal health care i believe what my

359
00:15:37,010 --> 00:15:33,210
husband is the best-looking funniest and

360
00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:37,020
smartest man world but i don't believe

361
00:15:43,490 --> 00:15:39,990
in evolution i would hope you don't

362
00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:43,500
either we get out of that habit we don't

363
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:44,910
need to include other members of society

364
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:47,010
Givens we scientists and members of

365
00:15:51,380 --> 00:15:48,810
society so we don't talk about believing

366
00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:51,390
the kinetic theory matter but we kind of

367
00:15:56,660 --> 00:15:53,310
fall into that trap of talking about the

368
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:56,670
b-word in connection with your try to

369
00:15:59,010 --> 00:15:58,320
break yourself of the habit of saying

370
00:16:02,500 --> 00:15:59,020
you believe in

371
00:16:04,270 --> 00:16:02,510
cuz your dogs but if people think

372
00:16:07,330 --> 00:16:04,280
evolution is a belief well then your

373
00:16:09,790 --> 00:16:07,340
belief is no better enable a very good

374
00:16:12,490 --> 00:16:09,800
verb to substitute for that is except I

375
00:16:14,650 --> 00:16:12,500
actually accept evolution because right

376
00:16:16,660 --> 00:16:14,660
now the idea that living things and

377
00:16:18,820 --> 00:16:16,670
common ancestors that's what evolution

378
00:16:20,350 --> 00:16:18,830
is the idea that living things are

379
00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:20,360
common ancestors is really the best

380
00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:23,120
explanation for fossils and the

381
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:25,040
biochemistry and all these other kinds

382
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:27,890
of sources of information there's not a

383
00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:29,600
belief something comes up with a better

384
00:16:33,970 --> 00:16:31,460
explanation two weeks from now that will

385
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:33,980
be really fun I'll give us all a bunch

386
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:37,040
of new science to do it will not tear my

387
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:38,810
heart strings out like I'm losing my

388
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:40,970
beliefs in the gold has been ugly no

389
00:16:51,180 --> 00:16:45,730
it's not a belief is not a belief so

390
00:16:54,010 --> 00:16:51,190
linguistics do comes does count now

391
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:54,020
don't stop made that first statement I

392
00:16:58,600 --> 00:16:56,330
could see an absolute collective state

393
00:17:00,850 --> 00:16:58,610
in a shot over the whole room is like

394
00:17:03,449 --> 00:17:00,860
looking at a hundred and twenty statues

395
00:17:05,819 --> 00:17:03,459
for a moment I was one of them as hell

396
00:17:08,350 --> 00:17:05,829
most of us up here knew what was coming

397
00:17:14,260 --> 00:17:08,360
I guess it after a moment but being

398
00:17:16,030 --> 00:17:14,270
rather slow thinking yeah look in that

399
00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:16,040
sense sure I mean I've been called an

400
00:17:22,540 --> 00:17:20,350
evolutionist and that term is false I

401
00:17:24,429 --> 00:17:22,550
believe that if there were sufficient

402
00:17:26,620 --> 00:17:24,439
evidence against the theory of evolution

403
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:26,630
so that if she was overthrown then I

404
00:17:30,730 --> 00:17:28,610
believe it should be thrown the help i

405
00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:30,740
do breathe that that's probably not

406
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:33,110
going to happen because as i understand

407
00:17:37,930 --> 00:17:34,730
it from the work of scientists evidence

408
00:17:40,660 --> 00:17:37,940
is so massive that even the evolution or

409
00:17:42,430 --> 00:17:40,670
something like it is pretty well certain

410
00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:42,440
to have occurred we can say that with a

411
00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:42,990
great

412
00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:44,880
confidence but yes therefore in the

413
00:17:48,410 --> 00:17:46,710
sense of believing in the sense of what

414
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:48,420
believes in a religion in a religious

415
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:50,910
pay for believing in an ism yeah that's

416
00:17:54,260 --> 00:17:52,530
right we don't regard even if you nor

417
00:17:56,750 --> 00:17:54,270
any other scientific theory like that

418
00:17:59,180 --> 00:17:56,760
they are in fact established scientific

419
00:18:01,600 --> 00:17:59,190
theories exclamations of the universe

420
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:01,610
and generally speaking it is about

421
00:18:07,460 --> 00:18:04,890
generalization whenever science has

422
00:18:09,049 --> 00:18:07,470
concluded that a theory explains the

423
00:18:11,450 --> 00:18:09,059
evidence and should be accepted as the

424
00:18:13,010 --> 00:18:11,460
only explanation the rest of us I mean

425
00:18:14,419 --> 00:18:13,020
that you would then maybe states just

426
00:18:15,980 --> 00:18:14,429
like the rest of us the rest of us can

427
00:18:18,020 --> 00:18:15,990
have a pretty fair degree of confidence

428
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:18,030
that that very or something like it is

429
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:21,570
something very close to the truth I just

430
00:18:25,610 --> 00:18:23,520
want to say that whenever someone asks

431
00:18:27,710 --> 00:18:25,620
me a question with that word believe and

432
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:27,720
I just with a lot of words like this I

433
00:18:34,130 --> 00:18:31,050
always qualify it by saying if I believe

434
00:18:36,410 --> 00:18:34,140
you mean I currently hold true and then

435
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:36,420
go from there I like that word except oh

436
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:41,490
so much shorter yeah I actually hardly

437
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:43,530
ever use the lib theory either you know

438
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:47,130
because to scientist theory means

439
00:18:50,810 --> 00:18:48,960
explanation and it means the generally a

440
00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:50,820
well-founded explanation something's got

441
00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:52,440
a lot to back it up it doesn't mean

442
00:18:56,750 --> 00:18:54,990
hunch you know I have we have a booth

443
00:18:58,250 --> 00:18:56,760
over here y'all come and visit by one of

444
00:18:59,419 --> 00:18:58,260
these great t-shirts like this kind of

445
00:19:05,030 --> 00:18:59,429
friendliness near the front of

446
00:19:07,460 --> 00:19:05,040
photo/matt a wonderful I have this great

447
00:19:09,260 --> 00:19:07,470
conversation with a man who came to my

448
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:09,270
booth and he said well you know we saw

449
00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:12,000
this evolution stuff on the table and

450
00:19:16,460 --> 00:19:14,760
you said well you know I don't know I

451
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:16,470
think there'd be a lot fewer problems if

452
00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:17,970
they just taught evolution is a theory

453
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:21,809
rather than effect so this is a teaching

454
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:26,450
moment right that's not going to do it

455
00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:29,490
this is a teachable moment sorry you

456
00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:30,990
know what do you invite theory and of

457
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:32,820
course way to met my theory was guess or

458
00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:34,710
how to something that was not really and

459
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:36,510
so you know we talked a little bit more

460
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:40,710
about how one of the things that I tell

461
00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:43,050
science teachers to do when parents or

462
00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:45,000
students say well the revolution is just

463
00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:46,980
theory it's not know scientists are

464
00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:50,190
giving up on evolution x / games that's

465
00:19:54,620 --> 00:19:52,710
out there so well send that student to

466
00:19:56,270 --> 00:19:54,630
your local community college economist

467
00:19:58,100 --> 00:19:56,280
library just have them pick up a half a

468
00:20:00,350 --> 00:19:58,110
dozen journals or something flip through

469
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:00,360
the contents and see if there's any

470
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:02,850
article in any of those general science

471
00:20:09,820 --> 00:20:05,850
or nature cell see if there's any

472
00:20:12,620 --> 00:20:09,830
article in any of those journals that

473
00:20:14,450 --> 00:20:12,630
questions whether evolution to place

474
00:20:16,790 --> 00:20:14,460
questions whether living things that

475
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:16,800
come in ancestors what you will find is

476
00:20:21,140 --> 00:20:18,510
a lot of research going on about the

477
00:20:23,090 --> 00:20:21,150
details about the tree of life about

478
00:20:26,450 --> 00:20:23,100
mechanisms of change you find a lot of

479
00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:26,460
science going on about the details let

480
00:20:30,049 --> 00:20:28,590
me know if you find anything any article

481
00:20:31,850 --> 00:20:30,059
saying well you know maybe living things

482
00:20:33,230 --> 00:20:31,860
didn't have common answers see if

483
00:20:34,970 --> 00:20:33,240
there's anything like that and of course

484
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:34,980
the kids actually aren't going to do it

485
00:20:37,549 --> 00:20:36,690
but they feel that if they did there

486
00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:37,559
they're going to believe the teacher

487
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:40,710
more now but yeah if a student does this

488
00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:42,090
the student is not going to find that

489
00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:44,280
evolution is the shaking is an incident

490
00:20:48,249 --> 00:20:46,500
which is a very useful thing for

491
00:20:51,259 --> 00:20:48,259
students to know

492
00:20:53,749 --> 00:20:51,269
okay when I kind of keep things we're

493
00:20:55,609 --> 00:20:53,759
going to launder but a couple of other

494
00:20:57,919 --> 00:20:55,619
things to get at because I one of the

495
00:20:59,419 --> 00:20:57,929
things i want to do is get to sort of a

496
00:21:01,159 --> 00:20:59,429
pragmatic angle how do you how do you

497
00:21:03,919 --> 00:21:01,169
deal with this if you're a teacher or if

498
00:21:06,939 --> 00:21:03,929
you're a parent and how do you advocate

499
00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:06,949
for good science but and against this

500
00:21:12,139 --> 00:21:11,039
anti-scientific stuff but one thing I

501
00:21:14,839 --> 00:21:12,149
think it's very important for people

502
00:21:17,869 --> 00:21:14,849
understand is that and this became very

503
00:21:22,099 --> 00:21:17,879
clear to me from an article that about

504
00:21:24,889 --> 00:21:22,109
dr. Scott road years ago there are many

505
00:21:35,389 --> 00:21:24,899
different kinds thank you my uncle's

506
00:21:36,619 --> 00:21:35,399
here he did it Jeanne Jeanne Jeanne

507
00:21:37,939 --> 00:21:36,629
wrote this great article and she really

508
00:21:40,009 --> 00:21:37,949
it really drives well there are many

509
00:21:43,129 --> 00:21:40,019
different versions and forms of

510
00:21:45,309 --> 00:21:43,139
creationism I think maybe we make a

511
00:21:48,709 --> 00:21:45,319
mistake on our side sometimes by

512
00:21:50,749 --> 00:21:48,719
painting with too broad a brush because

513
00:21:54,589 --> 00:21:50,759
there really are differences within the

514
00:21:57,829 --> 00:21:54,599
creationist movement and they can really

515
00:21:59,869 --> 00:21:57,839
disagree on a lot of things and so this

516
00:22:01,999 --> 00:21:59,879
is an important thing to know too so

517
00:22:03,259 --> 00:22:02,009
let's maybe throw it out there for a few

518
00:22:10,740 --> 00:22:03,269
minutes of discussion and then we'll get

519
00:22:17,850 --> 00:22:15,120
utterly anybody okay I'll sorry that

520
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:17,860
hurt actually okay well I'll give you

521
00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:23,530
one example for example you you often

522
00:22:29,580 --> 00:22:27,280
hear creationists make the argument for

523
00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:29,590
example that we should teach all views

524
00:22:34,530 --> 00:22:31,390
can we should teach all views in

525
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:34,540
classroom the escalade don't actually

526
00:22:39,090 --> 00:22:37,090
did oh yeah when they say we should

527
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:39,100
teach all views it's kind of like it's

528
00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:40,690
kind of slimy maneuver because they're

529
00:22:44,250 --> 00:22:42,580
not really meeting all views because

530
00:22:45,870 --> 00:22:44,260
then you can counter the argument saying

531
00:22:49,620 --> 00:22:45,880
oh well should we church teach the

532
00:22:51,180 --> 00:22:49,630
Muslim version of creations in at this

533
00:22:55,770 --> 00:22:51,190
particular country that's really not a

534
00:22:59,250 --> 00:22:55,780
popular option among Christians yeah and

535
00:23:00,420 --> 00:22:59,260
so there's that angle right then the

536
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:00,430
audience about the flying spaghetti

537
00:23:06,780 --> 00:23:03,760
monster but the sticking with just

538
00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:06,790
creationism I mean I've seen many

539
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:08,590
different styles of creations such as

540
00:23:14,220 --> 00:23:11,290
you know you have the did what many of

541
00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:14,230
us think of as the biblically literal

542
00:23:19,290 --> 00:23:16,540
fundamentalist creations these are the

543
00:23:21,870 --> 00:23:19,300
young earth creationists ye cease then

544
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:21,880
you have the old earth creationist these

545
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:23,890
are people who accept that the earth is

546
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:25,330
four-and-a-half billion years old or

547
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:27,760
that the universe is 13.7 billion years

548
00:23:33,090 --> 00:23:31,210
old at hugh Ross is a good example of

549
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:33,100
this he's a great example of an older is

550
00:23:37,340 --> 00:23:35,170
gracious because he believes in all of

551
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:37,350
the cosmology and accepts all of that

552
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:41,710
but doesn't accept biological evolution

553
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:45,850
okay and you have people everywhere in

554
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:47,170
between and then you also have folks

555
00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:52,080
that go into this this idea that okay

556
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:54,640
you know they just want to push the

557
00:23:57,690 --> 00:23:56,530
Bible literally for one thing and then

558
00:24:00,030 --> 00:23:57,700
you have people on the other hand who

559
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:00,040
want to try to do everything they can to

560
00:24:04,910 --> 00:24:02,610
seem like they're avoid and pushing

561
00:24:06,590 --> 00:24:04,920
religion but they really are those are

562
00:24:09,650 --> 00:24:06,600
what I call the intelligent designers

563
00:24:12,020 --> 00:24:09,660
the people of the disco institute as i

564
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:12,030
like to call because just go as useful

565
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:18,480
someday so so any comments in that in

566
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:21,090
that vein well i don't know if this as

567
00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:24,090
much use but i know that in my state the

568
00:24:29,539 --> 00:24:27,360
gravity center of Virginia which is a an

569
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:29,549
educational center it is run by

570
00:24:35,030 --> 00:24:31,290
scientists in one way that they decided

571
00:24:37,850 --> 00:24:35,040
to sort of thumb their nose at the

572
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:37,860
notion that you know all theories or

573
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:39,690
more accurately two theories should be

574
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:41,970
promoted was that they created a large

575
00:24:47,030 --> 00:24:44,850
Norwich had seven different theories of

576
00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:47,040
how the universe began including on how

577
00:24:53,150 --> 00:24:49,950
the local aboriginal population believes

578
00:24:54,650 --> 00:24:53,160
that their world was created and often I

579
00:24:56,810 --> 00:24:54,660
try to point that out as an example

580
00:24:58,850 --> 00:24:56,820
power right fine let's have the more

581
00:25:00,320 --> 00:24:58,860
it's quite a beautiful piece I'm hoping

582
00:25:02,419 --> 00:25:00,330
to see Micah need to be the people up

583
00:25:05,270 --> 00:25:02,429
there about what led them to take this

584
00:25:08,060 --> 00:25:05,280
stance and what was the reaction by the

585
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:08,070
local what we might think of as standard

586
00:25:12,380 --> 00:25:10,080
creationists to that effort it was sort

587
00:25:22,090 --> 00:25:12,390
of more like I don't know this again so

588
00:25:24,169 --> 00:25:22,100
yeah yeah for you just might even fold

589
00:25:26,060 --> 00:25:24,179
you know you know it's really

590
00:25:29,180 --> 00:25:26,070
interesting i don't know if any of you

591
00:25:31,789 --> 00:25:29,190
have watched penn teller's show on

592
00:25:34,730 --> 00:25:31,799
showtime calm you know the children

593
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:34,740
mailers has soap yes but they did this

594
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:36,210
excellent in their first season they did

595
00:25:42,860 --> 00:25:38,330
this excellent a piece where they had

596
00:25:44,570 --> 00:25:42,870
genie on and and they talked about

597
00:25:45,980 --> 00:25:44,580
creationism and and they made this

598
00:25:48,919 --> 00:25:45,990
excellent little skit they were talking

599
00:25:50,790 --> 00:25:48,929
about the Raelians ok now for those of

600
00:25:54,090 --> 00:25:50,800
you who don't know the real

601
00:25:56,130 --> 00:25:54,100
the Raelians are ok now they're only

602
00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:56,140
about 50,000 Raelians in the Unites or

603
00:26:00,690 --> 00:25:58,450
sorry in the world I think so if I'm

604
00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:00,700
thinking on I'm pretty good ground here

605
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:02,080
in assuming that none of them are

606
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:03,490
present so I'm going to say this just

607
00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:07,090
like I think the Raelians are from what

608
00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:10,900
I understand it a new age atheistic UFO

609
00:26:16,980 --> 00:26:14,830
cult ok and they believe in intelligent

610
00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:16,990
design they just think that the

611
00:26:22,830 --> 00:26:19,120
intelligent designer or space aliens

612
00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:22,840
instead of God somehow the you know the

613
00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:25,510
the folks of the Discovery Institute are

614
00:26:29,790 --> 00:26:28,000
not looking too they're not yet they're

615
00:26:32,460 --> 00:26:29,800
not looking to ally themselves thrilling

616
00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:32,470
I don't know even though they advocate

617
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:36,430
for intelligent design ok so but one

618
00:26:41,070 --> 00:26:38,290
thing that they do do at the Discovery

619
00:26:43,710 --> 00:26:41,080
Institute those they use that as a

620
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:43,720
doorway to say oh you know this isn't

621
00:26:49,310 --> 00:26:46,810
about religion so they they don't

622
00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:49,320
exactly actively refute it either

623
00:26:52,830 --> 00:26:51,760
because that allows them to say well

624
00:26:55,290 --> 00:26:52,840
there are plenty of people to believe in

625
00:26:59,850 --> 00:26:55,300
intelligent design and they don't

626
00:27:02,130 --> 00:26:59,860
believe that it's God the ideas have

627
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:02,140
this very interest i protect like this 5

628
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:04,690
30 else or so let's get the talk about

629
00:27:12,810 --> 00:27:07,810
it they have this very strange way of

630
00:27:15,180 --> 00:27:12,820
looking at did they pay creationists are

631
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:15,190
real enthusiast for dichotomized thing

632
00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:16,650
the intelligent design people

633
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:20,440
dichotomize cause they have natural

634
00:27:24,330 --> 00:27:22,450
cause and intelligent cause those are

635
00:27:26,010 --> 00:27:24,340
the two kinds of causes they recognize

636
00:27:29,070 --> 00:27:26,020
the natural causes are the kind of stuff

637
00:27:31,470 --> 00:27:29,080
we would be familiar with us now the

638
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:31,480
regular laws of nature fine everybody

639
00:27:35,580 --> 00:27:33,130
agrees with that over here on the

640
00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:35,590
intelligent calls column they have

641
00:27:38,899 --> 00:27:37,990
things like oh god that's when

642
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:38,909
intelligent

643
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:42,330
they have human beings leather type of

644
00:27:46,999 --> 00:27:44,129
intelligent cause we create things

645
00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:47,009
obviously too subtle degree there's some

646
00:27:51,109 --> 00:27:49,470
debate maybe the higher primates or

647
00:27:53,690 --> 00:27:51,119
dolphins they have intelligence of

648
00:27:56,330 --> 00:27:53,700
course space aliens I mean that's also

649
00:27:59,299 --> 00:27:56,340
over there on the on the intelligent

650
00:28:02,539 --> 00:27:59,309
cruise line but what's kind of

651
00:28:05,109 --> 00:28:02,549
intriguing here is that most of those

652
00:28:07,749 --> 00:28:05,119
commodities over there and the

653
00:28:11,389 --> 00:28:07,759
intelligent cause part of the diagram

654
00:28:13,519 --> 00:28:11,399
really are natural now human being space

655
00:28:15,409 --> 00:28:13,529
aliens are material beings as well

656
00:28:17,180 --> 00:28:15,419
higher primates dolphins all of those

657
00:28:19,549 --> 00:28:17,190
those are really natural objects they

658
00:28:21,349 --> 00:28:19,559
belong over here in natural class so

659
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:21,359
really when you come right down to it

660
00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:23,570
the only intelligent cause that the

661
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:25,529
intelligent design people are really

662
00:28:32,539 --> 00:28:29,129
talking about is transcendent cause it's

663
00:28:36,139 --> 00:28:32,549
got and when you really kind of nail

664
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:36,149
them down to what kind of intelligence

665
00:28:43,549 --> 00:28:39,570
would be involved in especially creating

666
00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:43,559
the bacterial flagellum right time

667
00:28:49,129 --> 00:28:47,129
traveling biochemists perhaps as Michael

668
00:28:51,499 --> 00:28:49,139
Behe once suggested the hope not very

669
00:28:54,889 --> 00:28:51,509
seriously well no obviously not they're

670
00:28:56,719 --> 00:28:54,899
talking about that so it's it is really

671
00:29:05,259 --> 00:28:56,729
just rolling the pea under a different

672
00:29:10,009 --> 00:29:07,669
regarding this business there being many

673
00:29:12,109 --> 00:29:10,019
creationism I actually raised this month

674
00:29:15,889 --> 00:29:12,119
riveted creationist in Australia and

675
00:29:18,049 --> 00:29:15,899
there were the extreme young earth 6 24

676
00:29:21,499 --> 00:29:18,059
hour day creationists and the response

677
00:29:24,049 --> 00:29:21,509
was that theirs was the only true form

678
00:29:25,550 --> 00:29:24,059
of religion other religions of course

679
00:29:27,230 --> 00:29:25,560
Islam in Lewis

680
00:29:30,590 --> 00:29:27,240
is that they of course are all wrong

681
00:29:33,170 --> 00:29:30,600
they're all down furthermore anybody who

682
00:29:36,010 --> 00:29:33,180
compromises with a theistic devil its

683
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:36,020
deadliness inspire evolutionism is

684
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:39,810
therefore compromising with roland views

685
00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:42,210
and they are on a slippery slope which

686
00:29:47,570 --> 00:29:44,670
leads inevitably to atheism and

687
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:47,580
damnation now that is the way that they

688
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:50,010
see their knowing they're not the only

689
00:29:53,450 --> 00:29:52,050
kind of creation so those are fun malice

690
00:29:54,890 --> 00:29:53,460
Muslim creatures will do the same thing

691
00:29:56,420 --> 00:29:54,900
yes I'm there are a whole set of

692
00:29:58,190 --> 00:29:56,430
different kinds of fundamentalism but

693
00:30:00,050 --> 00:29:58,200
we're focus it will focus on on this

694
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:00,060
Christian creationist one and as a

695
00:30:04,190 --> 00:30:02,730
result of that I began to see how they

696
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:04,200
think now there may well be people in

697
00:30:08,690 --> 00:30:06,000
this room who understand this better

698
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:08,700
than I do but the way they think is that

699
00:30:15,470 --> 00:30:12,090
their views must be held in their

700
00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:15,480
entirety or they are damned now

701
00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:17,340
therefore you can understand the kind of

702
00:30:21,380 --> 00:30:19,710
hysteria and fear that they are Ian when

703
00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:21,390
for example it's send their children to

704
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:23,310
school and you know fundamentals let

705
00:30:26,750 --> 00:30:24,720
their children just so much to anybody

706
00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:26,760
else and the children come home and they

707
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:28,830
start to talk about Old Earth and they

708
00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:30,330
start to talk about evolution and

709
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:32,880
therefore from their perspective their

710
00:30:37,610 --> 00:30:35,250
children are damped or you can imagine

711
00:30:41,090 --> 00:30:37,620
fundamentalist teachers in school they

712
00:30:42,410 --> 00:30:41,100
must impart the true message or else the

713
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:42,420
children that they are teaching our

714
00:30:50,420 --> 00:30:46,130
damned so they're in a kind of sustained

715
00:30:52,370 --> 00:30:50,430
state of hysteria and fear there nor was

716
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:52,380
in the background there are the coals

717
00:30:58,450 --> 00:30:55,290
and hell as far as I can tell that's how

718
00:31:11,650 --> 00:30:58,460
they think it's such a good boy

719
00:31:13,870 --> 00:31:11,660
no I'm talking about queens laughs now

720
00:31:16,150 --> 00:31:13,880
the area thoroughly I want to get it a

721
00:31:20,050 --> 00:31:16,160
point that that was that was made here

722
00:31:21,970 --> 00:31:20,060
by a genie a moment ago and this is of

723
00:31:25,470 --> 00:31:21,980
course kind of dovetails into the next

724
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:25,480
couple of points I wanted to tackle and

725
00:31:31,030 --> 00:31:28,010
it also don't tell sends it into what

726
00:31:33,130 --> 00:31:31,040
you just said because in my experience

727
00:31:35,650 --> 00:31:33,140
what you've got is we've got two broad

728
00:31:37,540 --> 00:31:35,660
classes of people who third form the

729
00:31:38,770 --> 00:31:37,550
creations movement in miking you've got

730
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:38,780
what you guys you got the people who are

731
00:31:41,790 --> 00:31:39,770
true believers like what you just

732
00:31:43,660 --> 00:31:41,800
described and these are people who are

733
00:31:44,710 --> 00:31:43,670
legitimately concerned because they

734
00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:44,720
think that if their children are

735
00:31:49,060 --> 00:31:47,360
learning us they're going to help and in

736
00:31:52,270 --> 00:31:49,070
their frame okay and then you've got

737
00:31:54,610 --> 00:31:52,280
what i call the cynics I and these are

738
00:31:56,140 --> 00:31:54,620
the people who i think for lack of a

739
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:56,150
better term run the show in places like

740
00:32:00,850 --> 00:31:58,010
the Discovery Institute because they

741
00:32:03,730 --> 00:32:00,860
know they're lying but they do it anyway

742
00:32:05,230 --> 00:32:03,740
and this goes to a point the genie just

743
00:32:07,780 --> 00:32:05,240
saying you know the people the Discovery

744
00:32:09,940 --> 00:32:07,790
Institute will say oh this this isn't

745
00:32:11,350 --> 00:32:09,950
about religion it is about God well let

746
00:32:12,610 --> 00:32:11,360
me ask you all a question how many of

747
00:32:14,190 --> 00:32:12,620
you have heard about this little thing

748
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:14,200
released by Discovery Institute

749
00:32:19,150 --> 00:32:16,250
inadvertently in the 90s called the

750
00:32:20,770 --> 00:32:19,160
wedge document ok if you don't know

751
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:20,780
about the wedge document and you're at

752
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:24,050
all concerned about this topic google it

753
00:32:29,110 --> 00:32:27,530
all right because this lays bare their

754
00:32:30,970 --> 00:32:29,120
agenda I just want to be a couple of

755
00:32:32,590 --> 00:32:30,980
quotes here right we actually have

756
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:32,600
copies in which document up here you can

757
00:32:37,740 --> 00:32:34,510
grab afterwards if you're interested

758
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:37,750
this is not about religion

759
00:32:42,030 --> 00:32:40,240
design Theory promises to reverse the

760
00:32:43,860 --> 00:32:42,040
stifling dominance of the materialist

761
00:32:46,110 --> 00:32:43,870
world you and to replace it with a

762
00:32:51,930 --> 00:32:46,120
science consonant with Christian

763
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:51,940
theistic convictions one of the 20 year

764
00:33:05,020 --> 00:33:01,290
to see design Theory permeate our

765
00:33:09,850 --> 00:33:05,030
religious cultural moral and political

766
00:33:12,610 --> 00:33:09,860
life no it's not about religion you tell

767
00:33:15,610 --> 00:33:12,620
me you know I noticed something mad you

768
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:15,620
don't have a creationist up here that

769
00:33:23,530 --> 00:33:17,570
something is kind of really lacks oh oh

770
00:33:26,620 --> 00:33:23,540
that's a good point oh okay you know you

771
00:33:30,670 --> 00:33:26,630
just presented a distortion of

772
00:33:34,540 --> 00:33:30,680
intelligent designers because obviously

773
00:33:36,970 --> 00:33:34,550
intelligent design has has philosophical

774
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:36,980
or religious overtones but so does

775
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:39,110
evolution I mean look at somebody like

776
00:33:48,910 --> 00:33:41,210
Gigi Simpson whippets look at somebody

777
00:33:55,900 --> 00:33:52,600
it was large turn to face ball I mean

778
00:33:57,820 --> 00:33:55,910
Gigi Simpson any number of other of

779
00:33:59,560 --> 00:33:57,830
other famous paleontologists and

780
00:34:04,840 --> 00:33:59,570
evolutionary biologists have said over

781
00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:04,850
and over that that evolution is Charles

782
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,190
thymine Richard Dawkins himself has said

783
00:34:11,890 --> 00:34:09,679
that evolution makes it possible to be a

784
00:34:14,980 --> 00:34:11,900
an intellectually fulfilled atheist now

785
00:34:17,530 --> 00:34:14,990
clearly if evolution has all of these

786
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:17,540
religious implications it must be okay

787
00:34:22,060 --> 00:34:20,090
for intelligent designed to have

788
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:22,070
religious implications nobody's saying

789
00:34:25,990 --> 00:34:24,169
that evolution is a religious just

790
00:34:28,330 --> 00:34:26,000
because there's evidence because there's

791
00:34:31,240 --> 00:34:28,340
religious implications now intelligent

792
00:34:33,220 --> 00:34:31,250
design is a solid science it's a way of

793
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:33,230
understanding design in the natural

794
00:34:37,060 --> 00:34:35,210
world we just want intelligent design to

795
00:34:38,830 --> 00:34:37,070
be taught as a legitimate scientific

796
00:34:41,230 --> 00:34:38,840
undertaking but unfortunately we're

797
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:41,240
being persecuted by the establishment my

798
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:43,970
response is a fist is very pithy if

799
00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:45,650
intelligent designers of science named

800
00:34:50,860 --> 00:34:47,030
the vaccine that you made using

801
00:34:52,750 --> 00:34:50,870
intelligent design please look hard to

802
00:34:55,450 --> 00:34:52,760
come up with vaccine I mean my goodness

803
00:34:58,450 --> 00:34:55,460
the intelligent design is in its infancy

804
00:35:00,430 --> 00:34:58,460
we can't possibly be expected to come up

805
00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:00,440
with something like vaccines and weird

806
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:04,070
we're exploring a field that integrates

807
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:08,330
biology and informatics and statistics

808
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:09,650
and you expect maybe this is a

809
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:19,500
give another nun so I just like to have

810
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:22,720
ones back you know and I think that's

811
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:24,970
where you're going you're eight there is

812
00:35:29,550 --> 00:35:27,910
no theory and there are no facts there

813
00:35:33,390 --> 00:35:29,560
are statements that have been made such

814
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:33,400
as there there's irreducible complexity

815
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:37,450
of worth which have been falsifying at

816
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:38,890
least the evidence that they present it

817
00:35:48,690 --> 00:35:41,610
as been falsified so it hasn't produced

818
00:35:51,450 --> 00:35:48,700
anything and vaccine way we waiting far

819
00:35:55,230 --> 00:35:51,460
away from that so you actually have to

820
00:35:58,590 --> 00:35:55,240
have something to present it other than

821
00:36:01,320 --> 00:35:58,600
so I did it or I'm sorry not God did it

822
00:36:03,450 --> 00:36:01,330
an intelligent design of agents and

823
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:03,460
intelligent agent designed it but looks

824
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:06,570
and it's also backwards is post hoc the

825
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:09,310
genies doing a good good job here

826
00:36:13,530 --> 00:36:11,890
langdale trafficking because this is a

827
00:36:15,450 --> 00:36:13,540
next one point because this leads right

828
00:36:16,830 --> 00:36:15,460
into the next thing and I'm taking a

829
00:36:19,170 --> 00:36:16,840
look at my watch and you can probably

830
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:19,180
made me spend about 20 / 10 minutes on

831
00:36:23,310 --> 00:36:21,250
this next plane this is probably a very

832
00:36:26,130 --> 00:36:23,320
good place to do this now let's talk

833
00:36:29,100 --> 00:36:26,140
about the tactics that creation swings

834
00:36:31,170 --> 00:36:29,110
and how can one effectively counter

835
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:31,180
these tactics because one thing that

836
00:36:36,140 --> 00:36:34,210
they're very good about that we all

837
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:36,150
agree that they're lousing about science

838
00:36:45,210 --> 00:36:41,050
okay but they're very good PR very good

839
00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:45,220
at PR so how do you recognize it and how

840
00:36:52,260 --> 00:36:48,070
do you address it either as a teacher a

841
00:36:54,690 --> 00:36:52,270
student parent and advocate whatever so

842
00:36:56,910 --> 00:36:54,700
let's open it up this is one thing I've

843
00:36:59,310 --> 00:36:56,920
come across as an English teacher there

844
00:37:01,680 --> 00:36:59,320
is a popular study guide that is

845
00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:01,690
published in my state and now i believe

846
00:37:05,310 --> 00:37:03,040
it's being published in some other

847
00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:05,320
states a group called three woman and

848
00:37:11,910 --> 00:37:08,800
film and publishing what they do we is

849
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:11,920
study notes and many quizzes for some of

850
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:13,690
the final year's exams in high school

851
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:16,090
and they are very neatly packaged very

852
00:37:22,220 --> 00:37:18,850
glossy and they promote creationism in

853
00:37:25,530 --> 00:37:22,230
the final pages of the book and in the

854
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:25,540
inside cover of the book I found their

855
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:27,970
perfect world yes whilst teaching all

856
00:37:31,710 --> 00:37:29,650
the other the study notes within our

857
00:37:33,420 --> 00:37:31,720
excellent there isn't a very good study

858
00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:33,430
guide writers but the entire thing is

859
00:37:38,070 --> 00:37:36,400
packaged with in a bit of propaganda it

860
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:38,080
might be entertained to know that even

861
00:37:43,710 --> 00:37:40,510
the human biology study guide which

862
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:43,720
explicitly teaches evolution is still

863
00:37:49,830 --> 00:37:47,530
packaged in creationist text and many

864
00:37:52,410 --> 00:37:49,840
schools bichri ominous study guides

865
00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:52,420
because it's nicely packaged one and it

866
00:37:56,250 --> 00:37:54,310
just pops onto the schools so pop a

867
00:37:57,540 --> 00:37:56,260
dozen schools and probably very few

868
00:37:59,700 --> 00:37:57,550
teachers pick it up flip to the back

869
00:38:01,590 --> 00:37:59,710
pages and notice that it's saying of

870
00:38:03,420 --> 00:38:01,600
course this mathematics textbook is

871
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:03,430
demonstrating how there is indeed a

872
00:38:11,250 --> 00:38:05,530
natural order in the world and we can

873
00:38:13,310 --> 00:38:11,260
attribute that natural order to writing

874
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:13,320
to the principal's was my strategy

875
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:16,210
pointing it out at the English teachers

876
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:19,210
association meeting that we had and why

877
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:20,530
do you have to make your teachers that

878
00:38:25,340 --> 00:38:22,210
maybe you might like to try an

879
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:25,350
alternative text I'm future Philip

880
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:31,810
creelman see II LMA and I've written

881
00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:36,910
about it on my blog at www calm and I

882
00:38:41,250 --> 00:38:38,800
can email you a copy I took photos

883
00:38:42,930 --> 00:38:41,260
Overson and everything was quite happy

884
00:38:44,670 --> 00:38:42,940
to go down and purchase a few copies and

885
00:38:45,799 --> 00:38:44,680
made a lot easier for me to go up to

886
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:45,809
meeting to say

887
00:38:52,670 --> 00:38:49,920
see I h-60 Bowl I won't say another

888
00:38:53,989 --> 00:38:52,680
tactic another another tactic and

889
00:38:55,729 --> 00:38:53,999
creations will use in a good way to

890
00:38:57,469 --> 00:38:55,739
counter and this is exactly how the

891
00:39:04,309 --> 00:38:57,479
Darwins bulldogs group north of Chicago

892
00:39:07,189 --> 00:39:04,319
got started is watch watch your local

893
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:07,199
letters to the editor right because I

894
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:10,170
get the sense that what creationists

895
00:39:15,799 --> 00:39:14,130
will do is when they plan on moving in

896
00:39:17,029 --> 00:39:15,809
so to speak into an area to trying to

897
00:39:18,739 --> 00:39:17,039
take over in school board because this

898
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:18,749
sort of thing almost happened where near

899
00:39:22,999 --> 00:39:21,119
where I live that they'll though I think

900
00:39:25,099 --> 00:39:23,009
what they'll do is though it looks the

901
00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:25,109
way I do is they'll grow up with these

902
00:39:29,989 --> 00:39:26,400
letters to the other and we'll see if

903
00:39:31,370 --> 00:39:29,999
they can challenge and because years ago

904
00:39:33,380 --> 00:39:31,380
there was there were all these letters

905
00:39:35,420 --> 00:39:33,390
to the editor finding suddenly popping

906
00:39:38,299 --> 00:39:35,430
up about creationism in my local paper

907
00:39:40,429 --> 00:39:38,309
and I couldn't understand it and sure

908
00:39:42,679 --> 00:39:40,439
enough a couple years after that there

909
00:39:44,929 --> 00:39:42,689
was a major push by the religious right

910
00:39:48,739 --> 00:39:44,939
to take over one of the biggest school

911
00:39:50,029 --> 00:39:48,749
districts near in the country and it was

912
00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:50,039
right near where I live and folks if

913
00:39:52,459 --> 00:39:51,209
they had been successful it would have

914
00:39:56,209 --> 00:39:52,469
been the next number i can guarantee

915
00:39:58,009 --> 00:39:56,219
that okay so what the way that Darwin's

916
00:39:59,749 --> 00:39:58,019
Bulldog has got started I personally got

917
00:40:01,249 --> 00:39:59,759
tired of seeing those creationist

918
00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:01,259
letters and nobody was countering them

919
00:40:04,489 --> 00:40:03,119
so I started talking to colleagues and

920
00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:04,499
other people and we started writing our

921
00:40:09,769 --> 00:40:07,529
letters back and now you barely see any

922
00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:09,779
creationist letters in our local paper

923
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:12,390
anymore they lost that fight anything

924
00:40:17,419 --> 00:40:13,890
else what else you know what other

925
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:17,429
tactics or what can we do I would I

926
00:40:22,669 --> 00:40:20,729
would strongly encourage especially

927
00:40:25,759 --> 00:40:22,679
scientists that anybody who is

928
00:40:27,439 --> 00:40:25,769
discussing this issue with someone

929
00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:27,449
especially if they're under food

930
00:40:31,670 --> 00:40:30,420
creations persuasion creationists at the

931
00:40:34,549 --> 00:40:31,680
Discovery Institute

932
00:40:37,010 --> 00:40:34,559
when dining out on scientific dogmatism

933
00:40:38,750 --> 00:40:37,020
for years they present the science

934
00:40:41,359 --> 00:40:38,760
community as dogmatic and closed-minded

935
00:40:44,210 --> 00:40:41,369
and they arguing or this link to us that

936
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:44,220
sells very well in the United States we

937
00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:47,010
love underdogs okay they're not

938
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:50,609
underdogs what I would encourage you to

939
00:40:55,460 --> 00:40:53,250
respond if you hear the sacrament is to

940
00:40:58,280 --> 00:40:55,470
say well actually the scientific

941
00:40:59,510 --> 00:40:58,290
community did examine their claims there

942
00:41:02,089 --> 00:40:59,520
is quite a literature out there

943
00:41:04,220 --> 00:41:02,099
discussing intelligent design or

944
00:41:06,650 --> 00:41:04,230
creation science or whatever the topic

945
00:41:08,930 --> 00:41:06,660
is there there are many books there are

946
00:41:11,450 --> 00:41:08,940
many articles much of this is online as

947
00:41:13,220 --> 00:41:11,460
well it's accessible to the public we

948
00:41:15,230 --> 00:41:13,230
didn't just look down our patrician

949
00:41:17,809 --> 00:41:15,240
scientific noses at them and dismiss

950
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:17,819
them out of out of hand a new idea was

951
00:41:21,740 --> 00:41:19,530
presented we treated it like any other

952
00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:21,750
no idea when dem skis book came up when

953
00:41:27,230 --> 00:41:24,000
be his book came up these books were

954
00:41:30,260 --> 00:41:27,240
seriously reviewed by the scientific

955
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:30,270
community and when the intelligent

956
00:41:33,620 --> 00:41:31,920
design people started holding these

957
00:41:35,780 --> 00:41:33,630
conferences at which they would invite

958
00:41:38,450 --> 00:41:35,790
real scientists and then they present

959
00:41:40,940 --> 00:41:38,460
the intelligent design stuff the real

960
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:40,950
scientists would say okay here is where

961
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:42,450
you're wrong here's where you went

962
00:41:46,490 --> 00:41:44,880
astray fix this this and this and the

963
00:41:48,170 --> 00:41:46,500
intelligent design people say thank you

964
00:41:49,339 --> 00:41:48,180
so much for coming to our conference it

965
00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:49,349
was just wonderful that we had this

966
00:41:53,299 --> 00:41:51,839
great dialogue and then two months later

967
00:41:54,980 --> 00:41:53,309
they'd have another conference and bring

968
00:41:56,539 --> 00:41:54,990
another bunch of virgin scientists and

969
00:41:57,890 --> 00:41:56,549
they'd say they'd be told the same

970
00:42:01,530 --> 00:41:57,900
things here's where you're wrong fix

971
00:42:05,710 --> 00:42:01,540
this this this and this process

972
00:42:07,570 --> 00:42:05,720
they were told over and over what the

973
00:42:09,730 --> 00:42:07,580
mistakes of intelligent design were in

974
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:09,740
content as well as a methodology and

975
00:42:14,380 --> 00:42:12,050
they have ignored the scientific

976
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:14,390
response this is why they are ignored by

977
00:42:17,950 --> 00:42:16,400
the scientific community but it's very

978
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:17,960
important that the public understand

979
00:42:22,510 --> 00:42:19,450
that they weren't dismissed out of hand

980
00:42:24,430 --> 00:42:22,520
there are there are arguments and ideas

981
00:42:26,350 --> 00:42:24,440
were examined there is an extensive

982
00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:26,360
literature analyzing intelligent design

983
00:42:30,310 --> 00:42:28,400
be sure that the person who people

984
00:42:31,930 --> 00:42:30,320
you're talking with understanding they

985
00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:31,940
still aren't either there there's the

986
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:35,390
Thera forms where you know people will

987
00:42:39,310 --> 00:42:37,490
debate them seriously michael shermer

988
00:42:43,060 --> 00:42:39,320
does that once in a while with hugh Ross

989
00:42:45,370 --> 00:42:43,070
and so forth and it's interesting to

990
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:45,380
watch but we started have debates look

991
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:49,910
at that okay I can just compare with

992
00:42:53,860 --> 00:42:52,250
what happened in Queensland intelligent

993
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:53,870
design doesn't seem to be a threat it

994
00:42:57,610 --> 00:42:55,850
doesn't exist there the big threat the

995
00:42:59,830 --> 00:42:57,620
massive threat which nearly took over

996
00:43:02,260 --> 00:42:59,840
Queensland education system was creation

997
00:43:05,470 --> 00:43:02,270
science and I remember way way back to

998
00:43:08,050 --> 00:43:05,480
25 years ago now a an enthusiastic

999
00:43:11,050 --> 00:43:08,060
fundamentalist put into my hand a pile

1000
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:11,060
of highly coloured creationist magazines

1001
00:43:17,350 --> 00:43:14,240
and he got me to promise that I would

1002
00:43:19,150 --> 00:43:17,360
read them and I read them and they're

1003
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:19,160
the same kind of ugly you can in fact

1004
00:43:23,230 --> 00:43:21,050
motion would pitch from over again and

1005
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:23,240
you know I read them and if you just

1006
00:43:28,060 --> 00:43:25,730
read them if you simply look at it it

1007
00:43:30,250 --> 00:43:28,070
creates the impression of a mass of

1008
00:43:32,170 --> 00:43:30,260
genuine scientific evidence because they

1009
00:43:33,460 --> 00:43:32,180
do quote real scientists they quote them

1010
00:43:34,750 --> 00:43:33,470
they cite them very first when they

1011
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:34,760
summarize them and it gives the

1012
00:43:38,050 --> 00:43:36,650
impression of this Titanic massive

1013
00:43:40,660 --> 00:43:38,060
evidence which is going to sweep aside

1014
00:43:42,700 --> 00:43:40,670
all this evolutionary nonsense and then

1015
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:42,710
the truth will emerge and we all know

1016
00:43:49,180 --> 00:43:46,880
what that is so it this reflects so

1017
00:43:51,099 --> 00:43:49,190
badly on my own intelligence it took me

1018
00:43:54,009 --> 00:43:51,109
several weeks to figure out what

1019
00:43:56,170 --> 00:43:54,019
next what I did was I took the highly

1020
00:43:58,089 --> 00:43:56,180
colored scientific magazines those

1021
00:44:00,400 --> 00:43:58,099
creationist bank things down to my

1022
00:44:03,999 --> 00:44:00,410
University Library and when they refer

1023
00:44:08,380 --> 00:44:04,009
to a scientist I checked it and what am

1024
00:44:11,289 --> 00:44:08,390
I found was that the quotes were ninety

1025
00:44:13,269 --> 00:44:11,299
percent blatantly false for example Eric

1026
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:13,279
quota scientist and they would alter the

1027
00:44:17,650 --> 00:44:15,410
words of the scientist had written to

1028
00:44:19,509 --> 00:44:17,660
mean something quite different or they

1029
00:44:21,430 --> 00:44:19,519
would take some data and they would

1030
00:44:22,839 --> 00:44:21,440
misrepresent what it meant and the

1031
00:44:25,150 --> 00:44:22,849
statistics i came up with there were two

1032
00:44:27,130 --> 00:44:25,160
statistics first that ninety percent of

1033
00:44:29,589 --> 00:44:27,140
creationist references to science were

1034
00:44:31,329 --> 00:44:29,599
blatantly false they misrepresented the

1035
00:44:33,489 --> 00:44:31,339
evidence and secondly that on average

1036
00:44:35,829 --> 00:44:33,499
every creation is reference to science

1037
00:44:37,509 --> 00:44:35,839
had two mistakes one was a major one

1038
00:44:38,890 --> 00:44:37,519
which would retain that alleging never

1039
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:38,900
were the one was a minor one lie getting

1040
00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:40,730
all the wrong or the page wrong or the

1041
00:44:45,609 --> 00:44:43,190
date wrong now those of you who are

1042
00:44:47,650 --> 00:44:45,619
awake will say well if 90 percenter that

1043
00:44:50,319 --> 00:44:47,660
were false what about the ten percent

1044
00:44:51,970 --> 00:44:50,329
that one false well the answer is that

1045
00:44:54,940 --> 00:44:51,980
these ten percent were non-contentious

1046
00:44:57,489 --> 00:44:54,950
one of them for example was on a report

1047
00:44:58,960 --> 00:44:57,499
that an American x-ray satellite had

1048
00:45:00,789 --> 00:44:58,970
taken x-ray pictures of the Sahara

1049
00:45:03,279 --> 00:45:00,799
Desert and had discovered the tea would

1050
00:45:04,749 --> 00:45:03,289
be to be wet at one stage okay well

1051
00:45:07,350 --> 00:45:04,759
that's non-contentious there's nothing

1052
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:07,360
in the fact

1053
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:09,010
the distal herb it's also a perfectly

1054
00:45:14,550 --> 00:45:11,920
content content shoot compatible with

1055
00:45:16,590 --> 00:45:14,560
modern geological theory so those ten

1056
00:45:18,090 --> 00:45:16,600
percent were non-contentious wherever

1057
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:18,100
the evidence was contentious whether

1058
00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:19,570
they claim that the evidence showed the

1059
00:45:23,970 --> 00:45:21,280
creation is right then they

1060
00:45:25,890 --> 00:45:23,980
misrepresented as a result of that I was

1061
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:25,900
then able to write a couple of dozen

1062
00:45:29,940 --> 00:45:28,090
papers which when two teachers magazine

1063
00:45:32,250 --> 00:45:29,950
school librarians magazines and things

1064
00:45:34,980 --> 00:45:32,260
like that making it an issue of

1065
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:34,990
integrity not an issue of religion but

1066
00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:37,330
an issue of integrity do we want our

1067
00:45:43,470 --> 00:45:40,240
children to be subjected to this kind of

1068
00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:43,480
blatant misrepresentation and the trench

1069
00:45:52,620 --> 00:45:50,110
is absolutely hated it I want to mention

1070
00:45:55,110 --> 00:45:52,630
one more thing that you know citizens

1071
00:46:00,090 --> 00:45:55,120
and people can do as a way of battling

1072
00:46:01,230 --> 00:46:00,100
the suicides and actually Kylie said

1073
00:46:03,210 --> 00:46:01,240
something a few minutes going to join my

1074
00:46:04,290 --> 00:46:03,220
memory on this um you know if you've

1075
00:46:10,350 --> 00:46:04,300
ever heard of this thing called the

1076
00:46:12,540 --> 00:46:10,360
internet star blog I did I started to

1077
00:46:14,220 --> 00:46:12,550
walk up you know eight nine months ago

1078
00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:14,230
it's called The Skeptical teacher google

1079
00:46:21,540 --> 00:46:18,040
it and hey it's enormously easy to do

1080
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:21,550
you can actually if you use a few tricks

1081
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:24,490
to to get traffic to it you can actually

1082
00:46:28,530 --> 00:46:26,950
reach a very wide audience if you're on

1083
00:46:33,210 --> 00:46:28,540
Facebook advertising through Facebook

1084
00:46:36,810 --> 00:46:33,220
and represent the pro science point of

1085
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:36,820
view among your own circle of friends

1086
00:46:41,460 --> 00:46:39,490
and acquaintances and basically go viral

1087
00:46:43,290 --> 00:46:41,470
with it because i was actually amazed

1088
00:46:44,820 --> 00:46:43,300
wasn't laughing about this stuff all the

1089
00:46:46,020 --> 00:46:44,830
time my wife left me one day and said

1090
00:46:47,670 --> 00:46:46,030
she should we always start a block which

1091
00:46:50,230 --> 00:46:47,680
was code for honey i love you but shut

1092
00:46:56,870 --> 00:46:53,560
and so I did and I could not believe how

1093
00:46:58,370 --> 00:46:56,880
quickly it took off so you know that's

1094
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:58,380
something else you can do you know check

1095
00:47:01,370 --> 00:47:00,000
your legs together respond to the letter

1096
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:01,380
to the editor responding to comments

1097
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:03,930
sections two letters to the editor you

1098
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:05,370
know you know respond on message boards

1099
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:07,680
a blog now there's all kinds of things

1100
00:47:13,550 --> 00:47:10,290
that normal everyday people can do to

1101
00:47:15,110 --> 00:47:13,560
counter this stuff one of the interviews

1102
00:47:17,540 --> 00:47:15,120
that we did for the skeptic zone

1103
00:47:19,250 --> 00:47:17,550
intriguingly enough the gentleman in

1104
00:47:21,650 --> 00:47:19,260
question we should be anonymous so we

1105
00:47:23,570 --> 00:47:21,660
had to record our questions send it to

1106
00:47:25,070 --> 00:47:23,580
them they recorded their questions

1107
00:47:29,950 --> 00:47:25,080
center back to us and we put it together

1108
00:47:32,810 --> 00:47:29,960
a pothole or 54 on YouTube who has yeah

1109
00:47:35,750 --> 00:47:32,820
visit us he is Australian or very proud

1110
00:47:37,580 --> 00:47:35,760
to say despite the lovely British accent

1111
00:47:41,830 --> 00:47:37,590
but then you two are Australian to lunch

1112
00:47:44,780 --> 00:47:41,840
Martin sir yes pot all 54 has created

1113
00:47:47,180 --> 00:47:44,790
youtube videos which are available to be

1114
00:47:48,830 --> 00:47:47,190
downloaded and sent out to people and

1115
00:47:51,230 --> 00:47:48,840
that's another way of essentially doing

1116
00:47:53,690 --> 00:47:51,240
a an audio blog and of course there's

1117
00:47:55,940 --> 00:47:53,700
podcast there's Oddcast there are the

1118
00:47:58,430 --> 00:47:55,950
fact that we are seated members freakin

1119
00:48:00,860 --> 00:47:58,440
thinking education very we got together

1120
00:48:02,450 --> 00:48:00,870
via the internet and this is the first

1121
00:48:04,310 --> 00:48:02,460
time that three of the members of the

1122
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:04,320
group and managed to get together it was

1123
00:48:09,380 --> 00:48:06,930
just purely from their emails for awards

1124
00:48:11,450 --> 00:48:09,390
and appearances at conferences are

1125
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:11,460
networking that way and we hope to do

1126
00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:12,930
more and touch base with even more

1127
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:14,880
teachers of share experiences and are

1128
00:48:23,740 --> 00:48:22,390
to learn more about the panelists you

1129
00:48:27,849 --> 00:48:23,750
can check out the National Center for

1130
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:27,859
Science Education at NCSE webs or see

1131
00:48:33,279 --> 00:48:30,890
Kevin bounce site is at see Kevin baucom

1132
00:48:35,650 --> 00:48:33,289
and the blocks of myself Matt Lowry and

1133
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:35,660
Barbra Drescher can be found at hot

1134
00:48:49,839 --> 00:48:38,720
black com skeptical teacher da wordpress

1135
00:48:52,029 --> 00:48:49,849
com and I CBS everywhere com hi this is

1136
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:52,039
travis from Granite State skeptics to

1137
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:53,210
tell you about our upcoming

1138
00:48:57,579 --> 00:48:55,250
investigation of an allegedly haunted

1139
00:48:59,440 --> 00:48:57,589
location this Halloween here in New

1140
00:49:01,120 --> 00:48:59,450
Hampshire we will be posting our

1141
00:49:03,220 --> 00:49:01,130
findings live on twitter and if

1142
00:49:05,740 --> 00:49:03,230
technology permits we will be streaming

1143
00:49:07,539 --> 00:49:05,750
live video as well following the event

1144
00:49:09,789 --> 00:49:07,549
we will be meeting at the hannah duston

1145
00:49:11,490 --> 00:49:09,799
memorial in boscawen new hampshire to go

1146
00:49:14,140 --> 00:49:11,500
over the findings and take questions

1147
00:49:16,059 --> 00:49:14,150
after that we will be inviting all those

1148
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:16,069
that attend along on another

1149
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:18,890
investigation in Manchester it should be

1150
00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:21,170
great fun and we'd love for you to be a

1151
00:49:26,260 --> 00:49:23,510
part of it you can follow along at

1152
00:49:28,890 --> 00:49:26,270
twitter.com / GS skeptics and get more

1153
00:49:36,849 --> 00:49:28,900
details at Granite State skeptics org

1154
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:38,769
the young scientist Awards are awarded

1155
00:49:43,299 --> 00:49:40,130
annually by the Science Teachers

1156
00:49:45,220 --> 00:49:43,309
Association of New South Wales on the 26

1157
00:49:47,079 --> 00:49:45,230
of October attended the young scientist

1158
00:49:48,940 --> 00:49:47,089
award ceremony as a representative of

1159
00:49:51,339 --> 00:49:48,950
Australian skeptics and had the pleasure

1160
00:49:53,979 --> 00:49:51,349
of seeing budding scientists aged 6 to

1161
00:49:56,950 --> 00:49:53,989
18 and I'm not joking being honored for

1162
00:49:58,720 --> 00:49:56,960
outstanding works of science awards were

1163
00:50:01,239 --> 00:49:58,730
given to all finalists which were

1164
00:50:04,599 --> 00:50:01,249
grouped by age kindergarten to year to

1165
00:50:07,930 --> 00:50:04,609
year years three to six is seven to nine

1166
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:07,940
in years ten to twelve special awards

1167
00:50:11,950 --> 00:50:09,680
were also given for special achievements

1168
00:50:14,499 --> 00:50:11,960
in various fields of science followed by

1169
00:50:17,589 --> 00:50:14,509
the grand awards the award for young

1170
00:50:19,059 --> 00:50:17,599
scientist of the year 2009 went to Ethan

1171
00:50:21,819 --> 00:50:19,069
Batson from the Illawarra Grammar School

1172
00:50:23,229 --> 00:50:21,829
in Wollongong after the ceremony I

1173
00:50:27,370 --> 00:50:23,239
caught up with Ethan for a short

1174
00:50:29,470 --> 00:50:27,380
conversation this is Ron Cey given that

1175
00:50:31,839 --> 00:50:29,480
the young scientist awards presented by

1176
00:50:33,249 --> 00:50:31,849
the Science Teachers Association of New

1177
00:50:36,249 --> 00:50:33,259
South Wales and I'm sitting here with a

1178
00:50:40,329 --> 00:50:36,259
young scientist of the year for 2009

1179
00:50:41,950 --> 00:50:40,339
Ethan button hello Ethan do you want to

1180
00:50:44,849 --> 00:50:41,960
tell me about the project that you did

1181
00:50:47,859 --> 00:50:44,859
that one you this wonderful award

1182
00:50:50,620 --> 00:50:47,869
alright the project that I was doing was

1183
00:50:53,470 --> 00:50:50,630
I was trying to find a new measure or

1184
00:50:55,890 --> 00:50:53,480
something to measure with ultraviolet

1185
00:50:58,839 --> 00:50:55,900
radiation oh I heard about this film

1186
00:51:02,259 --> 00:50:58,849
there was left outside near the window

1187
00:51:04,479 --> 00:51:02,269
sill and it turned a deeper blue color

1188
00:51:06,220 --> 00:51:04,489
than it was actually originally so I

1189
00:51:08,499 --> 00:51:06,230
decided that I wanted to do a few

1190
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:08,509
experiments with this film to see if it

1191
00:51:14,589 --> 00:51:10,970
actually could measure some type of

1192
00:51:16,690 --> 00:51:14,599
radiation so I did a few tests one I put

1193
00:51:18,249 --> 00:51:16,700
it under incandescent light switch just

1194
00:51:23,470 --> 00:51:18,259
puts out visible and a little bit of

1195
00:51:25,870 --> 00:51:23,480
heat and over eight days no really no

1196
00:51:30,190 --> 00:51:25,880
change occurred ah then I put it in the

1197
00:51:32,739 --> 00:51:30,200
oven for a 50 degrees and for about five

1198
00:51:35,229 --> 00:51:32,749
minutes and no change occurred there so

1199
00:51:37,809 --> 00:51:35,239
since there are three types of

1200
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:37,819
electromagnetic radiation that are being

1201
00:51:42,940 --> 00:51:40,249
irradiated from the Sun which is

1202
00:51:44,650 --> 00:51:42,950
ultraviolet visible light and infrared

1203
00:51:47,500 --> 00:51:44,660
which is heat

1204
00:51:50,349 --> 00:51:47,510
I had to assume that it actually did it

1205
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:50,359
was affected by ultraviolet radiation

1206
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:52,250
and I believe you do you drew a

1207
00:51:56,079 --> 00:51:53,890
calibration chart is that correct

1208
00:51:58,809 --> 00:51:56,089
calibration curve I used the information

1209
00:52:00,789 --> 00:51:58,819
which was I found the net optical

1210
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:00,799
density and then I verse that version

1211
00:52:06,220 --> 00:52:03,650
this is the exposure and then it can't

1212
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:06,230
come up with the trend line and then via

1213
00:52:13,779 --> 00:52:08,690
that trend line I found an equation that

1214
00:52:16,450 --> 00:52:13,789
was best for all of the results and that

1215
00:52:20,289 --> 00:52:16,460
pretty much allowed me to extremely

1216
00:52:22,839 --> 00:52:20,299
easily with that equation to find out

1217
00:52:25,390 --> 00:52:22,849
how long and what exposure the

1218
00:52:29,039 --> 00:52:25,400
ultraviolet radiation sensitive film

1219
00:52:31,450 --> 00:52:29,049
every T GAF chromic was exposed to

1220
00:52:33,549 --> 00:52:31,460
there's absolutely fantastic now I want

1221
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:33,559
to point out that as I mentioned the

1222
00:52:37,450 --> 00:52:35,450
earlier a lot of people in the audience

1223
00:52:40,270 --> 00:52:37,460
kind of an inkling that you could be the

1224
00:52:42,220 --> 00:52:40,280
winner because you were on the stage

1225
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:42,230
what about four or five times through

1226
00:52:47,650 --> 00:52:46,010
the evening so that was I was not a

1227
00:52:49,630 --> 00:52:47,660
surprise but obviously very very

1228
00:52:52,539 --> 00:52:49,640
pleasing to see on t see you there it's

1229
00:52:54,730 --> 00:52:52,549
a great achievement and now obviously

1230
00:52:56,230 --> 00:52:54,740
this is a recording so people don't see

1231
00:52:58,750 --> 00:52:56,240
you and they also haven't heard what

1232
00:52:59,829 --> 00:52:58,760
happened here during the proceedings so

1233
00:53:01,000 --> 00:52:59,839
they don't know how old you are woody

1234
00:53:04,210 --> 00:53:01,010
tell us how old you are in what year

1235
00:53:07,630 --> 00:53:04,220
you're in I mean you 7 I'm 2014 December

1236
00:53:09,519 --> 00:53:07,640
so obviously that's even that the

1237
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:09,529
achievement of winning this award is

1238
00:53:15,039 --> 00:53:12,730
even more amazing considering your age

1239
00:53:19,450 --> 00:53:15,049
very well done congratulations he

1240
00:53:23,809 --> 00:53:21,799
yo guys i was talking to Richard

1241
00:53:25,789 --> 00:53:23,819
solvency today all right he said if we

1242
00:53:27,980 --> 00:53:25,799
record a trailer for our podcast

1243
00:53:30,020 --> 00:53:27,990
skeptics with a que he'd play it on the

1244
00:53:31,279 --> 00:53:30,030
other Shore nice nice of him that's very

1245
00:53:32,750 --> 00:53:31,289
generous it's pretty good i'm not sure

1246
00:53:34,279 --> 00:53:32,760
what we could do though I mean well

1247
00:53:37,069 --> 00:53:34,289
suppose you tell people the shows about

1248
00:53:38,990 --> 00:53:37,079
but it's basically this yeah but yeah

1249
00:53:40,730 --> 00:53:39,000
but you know we talk about science and

1250
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:40,740
skepticism and things that's that's true

1251
00:53:43,670 --> 00:53:41,730
I suppose you know you mentioned the

1252
00:53:45,770 --> 00:53:43,680
website address not merseyside skeptics

1253
00:53:47,390 --> 00:53:45,780
todo UK yeah yeah just like searches

1254
00:53:49,849 --> 00:53:47,400
nineteen's oh and then we could end with

1255
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:49,859
like a big song like the skeptics with

1256
00:53:57,230 --> 00:53:53,010
okay oh no no no no no don't don't do

1257
00:53:59,510 --> 00:53:57,240
that welcome to the token skeptic quick

1258
00:54:01,700 --> 00:53:59,520
roundup of blog sites podcasts and

1259
00:54:03,529 --> 00:54:01,710
conferences coming up the Australian

1260
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:03,539
skeptics national convention is even

1261
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:05,760
closer now our very own dr. Rachel

1262
00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:07,710
Dunlop will be presenting in Brisbane at

1263
00:54:12,950 --> 00:54:09,720
the University of Queensland from

1264
00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:12,960
November the 27th to the 29th dr. Martin

1265
00:54:16,460 --> 00:54:14,700
bridge stock who you just heard on the

1266
00:54:18,980 --> 00:54:16,470
panel discussion for this week's episode

1267
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:18,990
will be doing a book launch for beyond

1268
00:54:23,329 --> 00:54:21,119
belief skepticism science and the

1269
00:54:25,490 --> 00:54:23,339
paranormal this has been published by

1270
00:54:27,049 --> 00:54:25,500
Cambridge University Press and should be

1271
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:27,059
of interest to all of those keen on

1272
00:54:30,890 --> 00:54:28,650
either learning or teaching about

1273
00:54:34,099 --> 00:54:30,900
skepticism the Australian skeptics

1274
00:54:36,799 --> 00:54:34,109
website at skeptics com au has further

1275
00:54:38,510 --> 00:54:36,809
details monster talk podcast is now

1276
00:54:40,940 --> 00:54:38,520
partnered with skeptic magazine and

1277
00:54:43,490 --> 00:54:40,950
skipped akala T podcast head on over to

1278
00:54:45,349 --> 00:54:43,500
monster talk dot org to listen to the

1279
00:54:47,660 --> 00:54:45,359
podcast team talk about the science

1280
00:54:50,059 --> 00:54:47,670
behind cryptozoological and legendary

1281
00:54:52,460 --> 00:54:50,069
creatures such as Bigfoot the Loch Ness

1282
00:54:54,859 --> 00:54:52,470
monster werewolves and Benjamin Radford

1283
00:54:56,930 --> 00:54:54,869
Tim Minchin is about to start his second

1284
00:54:58,730 --> 00:54:56,940
Australian tour and you might still be

1285
00:55:01,279 --> 00:54:58,740
able to find tickets by checking Tim

1286
00:55:03,230 --> 00:55:01,289
Minchin com the ready for this tour DVD

1287
00:55:05,089 --> 00:55:03,240
has been released in australia for about

1288
00:55:06,650 --> 00:55:05,099
a month now so if you haven't had the

1289
00:55:09,279 --> 00:55:06,660
chance you can still see the show at

1290
00:55:11,809 --> 00:55:09,289
home and download the songs on itunes

1291
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:11,819
finally the rise of atheism conference

1292
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,770
is not deterred by denial of service

1293
00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:15,839
attacks their website is working fine

1294
00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:17,730
and they're still selling tickets at

1295
00:55:30,750 --> 00:55:26,580
and now enjoy a few snippets of the

1296
00:55:34,290 --> 00:55:30,760
radio show dr. HC and I did with Glenn

1297
00:55:36,660 --> 00:55:34,300
wheeler on sydney's radio 2 GB ok let's

1298
00:55:39,540 --> 00:55:36,670
let's look at some some alternate

1299
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:39,550
examples of where you guys like to

1300
00:55:43,410 --> 00:55:41,440
analyze whether it's true or not and I

1301
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:43,420
mentioned earlier on about the spoon

1302
00:55:49,980 --> 00:55:47,170
bending exits on Yuri Gillen who was you

1303
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:49,990
know I guess probably more famous what

1304
00:55:54,270 --> 00:55:52,960
in the 1770s drifting into the 80s he

1305
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:54,280
sort of tried to have a come back in the

1306
00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:56,170
90s I think he's still buzzing around

1307
00:55:59,970 --> 00:55:58,240
business yeah still bending spoons oh

1308
00:56:02,670 --> 00:55:59,980
yeah yeah that sees one of these four

1309
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:02,680
tricks with one of four tricks he does

1310
00:56:08,580 --> 00:56:06,000
are you such a you are such a bit

1311
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:08,590
now spoon bending is is a trick you can

1312
00:56:12,780 --> 00:56:11,050
learn from the the books it really does

1313
00:56:14,790 --> 00:56:12,790
it so easily with one finger well I tell

1314
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:14,800
you what grab that spoon oh yeah i'm

1315
00:56:17,220 --> 00:56:16,210
passing lane a spoon at the moment

1316
00:56:19,890 --> 00:56:17,230
happen to have a stand with i do

1317
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:19,900
retching you have a spoon too I've got a

1318
00:56:23,820 --> 00:56:21,970
spoon here brother now you're happy or

1319
00:56:26,190 --> 00:56:23,830
that spoon yeah yeah it's a metal spoon

1320
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:26,200
folks it's a silver metal teaspoon that

1321
00:56:30,060 --> 00:56:27,970
you would have in your country girl give

1322
00:56:32,370 --> 00:56:30,070
it a little flex like that yep just make

1323
00:56:33,630 --> 00:56:32,380
sure it's nice and firm okay you happy

1324
00:56:35,310 --> 00:56:33,640
to that spoon right yep you have the

1325
00:56:37,950 --> 00:56:35,320
it's really no particles pass that one

1326
00:56:40,980 --> 00:56:37,960
back to me for a second yep now you take

1327
00:56:42,540 --> 00:56:40,990
that one right now what I'm going to do

1328
00:56:44,820 --> 00:56:42,550
is it hold up your spoon yeah right yep

1329
00:56:46,140 --> 00:56:44,830
hold it right there yeah start tweedle

1330
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:46,150
the bottom and you'll see an optical

1331
00:56:50,100 --> 00:56:48,370
illusion taking place now I'm just

1332
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:50,110
wiggling my spin see how that looks like

1333
00:56:55,830 --> 00:56:53,890
it's going really yeah yeah yeah I can

1334
00:56:57,990 --> 00:56:55,840
serve tonight yeah and the more you do

1335
00:57:00,780 --> 00:56:58,000
it the more it looks like it's getting

1336
00:57:02,070 --> 00:57:00,790
robbery and bending it almost looks like

1337
00:57:04,970 --> 00:57:02,080
it's made of plastic right actually

1338
00:57:13,950 --> 00:57:04,980
yours it you know those yours is bending

1339
00:57:16,050 --> 00:57:13,960
no come on like I said hang on a trick

1340
00:57:18,390 --> 00:57:16,060
you can learn so that Nick out of a book

1341
00:57:20,220 --> 00:57:18,400
Nick sitting outside doing our phones

1342
00:57:22,530 --> 00:57:20,230
tonight now listen that come on now do

1343
00:57:24,510 --> 00:57:22,540
it with it now that we're that's been

1344
00:57:26,430 --> 00:57:24,520
there we go all right what I'll do with

1345
00:57:27,780 --> 00:57:26,440
this too hope you take that one what

1346
00:57:29,190 --> 00:57:27,790
I'll do with this because I get to hang

1347
00:57:30,390 --> 00:57:29,200
out too many screws didn't you been that

1348
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:30,400
then you've been the hug but I've got

1349
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:32,050
lots of speech maker hold its been like

1350
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:33,490
you bend the spoon was this is one you

1351
00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:35,530
no no one its prey you're broken break

1352
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:38,710
it like I said this is unbelievable will

1353
00:57:41,940 --> 00:57:40,090
you take that one you take that one now

1354
00:57:43,710 --> 00:57:41,950
right just pop it here just rub it like

1355
00:57:45,690 --> 00:57:43,720
that instead of breaking it will try to

1356
00:57:51,690 --> 00:57:45,700
make this end curl up they see see how

1357
00:57:54,690 --> 00:57:51,700
that's curling up like that yeah what

1358
00:57:58,440 --> 00:57:54,700
stop hang on there we generally good

1359
00:57:59,700 --> 00:57:58,450
trick for radio isn't this is oh yeah

1360
00:58:01,440 --> 00:57:59,710
that is bizarre all right I've never

1361
00:58:02,790 --> 00:58:01,450
seen you do that before let me just tell

1362
00:58:05,190 --> 00:58:02,800
the people at home because you're not

1363
00:58:06,750 --> 00:58:05,200
Rachel there's ribs of ocean oh god this

1364
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:06,760
is radio so people at home going what

1365
00:58:10,500 --> 00:58:08,890
the hell are they you know we're doing

1366
00:58:12,990 --> 00:58:10,510
the uri geller exercise here and I've

1367
00:58:14,430 --> 00:58:13,000
got the Australian skeptics sitting in

1368
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:14,440
here showing me that you know what uri

1369
00:58:17,250 --> 00:58:15,970
geller used to do all those years ago on

1370
00:58:20,070 --> 00:58:17,260
the don line show and various other

1371
00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:20,080
programs was albeit it but it's a trick

1372
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:22,240
now the thing about spoon bathing is

1373
00:58:26,370 --> 00:58:24,730
it's a great trick and magicians have

1374
00:58:28,410 --> 00:58:26,380
been doing it for years and entertaining

1375
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:28,420
people legitimately and making many

1376
00:58:32,940 --> 00:58:30,610
people happy if someone comes along and

1377
00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:32,950
says it's not a trick it's doing it

1378
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:34,510
through mystical forces and I've got

1379
00:58:37,950 --> 00:58:36,250
special powers it's sort of like that's

1380
00:58:39,300 --> 00:58:37,960
just spoiling it for the magicians and

1381
00:58:41,099 --> 00:58:39,310
spoiling it for the audience who will

1382
00:58:43,650 --> 00:58:41,109
come along to see a good performance and

1383
00:58:45,570 --> 00:58:43,660
as you can see I've just done it right

1384
00:58:47,310 --> 00:58:45,580
here in the studio better than Geller

1385
00:58:48,420 --> 00:58:47,320
I'm still amazed what you just did

1386
00:58:50,250 --> 00:58:48,430
because you didn't just bend the spoon

1387
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:50,260
you broke this yeah yeah and you did it

1388
00:58:53,730 --> 00:58:51,970
without for that's that that's the

1389
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:53,740
hallmark of a good trick if it looked

1390
00:58:56,310 --> 00:58:55,090
like a trick would be a terrible trick

1391
00:58:58,890 --> 00:58:56,320
it has to look like you're using

1392
00:59:00,359 --> 00:58:58,900
mystical magical forces Rachel I'm

1393
00:59:02,130 --> 00:59:00,369
personally by the medical aspect of all

1394
00:59:05,250 --> 00:59:02,140
of this because obviously as he said

1395
00:59:07,290 --> 00:59:05,260
before the weak and the vulnerable

1396
00:59:10,260 --> 00:59:07,300
people who are suffering with terminal

1397
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:10,270
diagnosis I got to look for anything and

1398
00:59:14,130 --> 00:59:12,730
everything to try and cure them or at

1399
00:59:17,250 --> 00:59:14,140
least extend their life or give them

1400
00:59:19,050 --> 00:59:17,260
some quality of life ya know what are

1401
00:59:21,180 --> 00:59:19,060
the sorts of examples of things that you

1402
00:59:24,390 --> 00:59:21,190
know you've looked at that that have

1403
00:59:26,700 --> 00:59:24,400
proven to be absolute rubbish there's so

1404
00:59:28,070 --> 00:59:26,710
many Glen but I'm I suppose one of them

1405
00:59:31,620 --> 00:59:28,080
one of the things that's really

1406
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:31,630
dangerous and a nasty is when people

1407
00:59:36,420 --> 00:59:33,730
claim that they've got cancer cures and

1408
00:59:38,700 --> 00:59:36,430
there was an incident recently in South

1409
00:59:41,220 --> 00:59:38,710
Australia where a woman was running an

1410
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:41,230
alternative medicine clinic and she was

1411
00:59:46,589 --> 00:59:42,850
claiming she could cure cancer by

1412
00:59:49,529 --> 00:59:46,599
prescribing KFC to patients

1413
00:59:51,390 --> 00:59:49,539
and people believed it and then these

1414
00:59:53,039 --> 00:59:51,400
people have terminal cancer so as you

1415
00:59:54,329 --> 00:59:53,049
say they're desperate and they're ill

1416
00:59:56,969 --> 00:59:54,339
and they know they're going to die

1417
00:59:59,099 --> 00:59:56,979
that's not even funny I mean no no no

1418
01:00:00,329 --> 00:59:59,109
you can't even laugh at them so yeah I

1419
01:00:02,430 --> 01:00:00,339
mean a lot of the things we deal with a

1420
01:00:04,410 --> 01:00:02,440
great fun those really are we have an

1421
01:00:06,599 --> 01:00:04,420
enormous amount of fun but some of the

1422
01:00:08,249 --> 01:00:06,609
things had terribly serious yeah and of

1423
01:00:11,039 --> 01:00:08,259
course you probably also remember

1424
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:11,049
recently the case of the young girl who

1425
01:00:16,349 --> 01:00:13,690
died as a result of contracting or

1426
01:00:19,469 --> 01:00:16,359
having a bad case of eczema and her

1427
01:00:21,630 --> 01:00:19,479
parents were recently committed and

1428
01:00:22,979 --> 01:00:21,640
charged with manslaughter because they

1429
01:00:25,049 --> 01:00:22,989
didn't get her eczema treated and they

1430
01:00:27,390 --> 01:00:25,059
were using homeopathy and homeopathy

1431
01:00:29,219 --> 01:00:27,400
there's really no evidence that it does

1432
01:00:31,079 --> 01:00:29,229
anything either in fact some that's

1433
01:00:33,479 --> 01:00:31,089
another story we could talk about that

1434
01:00:35,819 --> 01:00:33,489
sometime if you're interested but when

1435
01:00:37,529 --> 01:00:35,829
people are suffering because of the

1436
01:00:40,890 --> 01:00:37,539
claims made by what we call quacks

1437
01:00:43,620 --> 01:00:40,900
that's when it does really really a lot

1438
01:00:45,569 --> 01:00:43,630
of harm it's fallen is tonight we've

1439
01:00:46,589 --> 01:00:45,579
we've just about run out of time with it

1440
01:00:47,819 --> 01:00:46,599
we've got more calls when we could

1441
01:00:49,469 --> 01:00:47,829
probably do this for an hour you know

1442
01:00:51,299 --> 01:00:49,479
because people are talking about ghosts

1443
01:00:52,859 --> 01:00:51,309
and career and all sorts of things like

1444
01:00:55,859 --> 01:00:52,869
this and you know sharing an experience

1445
01:00:57,539 --> 01:00:55,869
so we might we might reconvene with its

1446
01:00:59,609 --> 01:00:57,549
down the track in in a few weeks time

1447
01:01:00,959 --> 01:00:59,619
seems like good for it's quite a good

1448
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:00,969
public in like a bit of a regular

1449
01:01:04,289 --> 01:01:02,890
segment of this and let people share

1450
01:01:05,819 --> 01:01:04,299
their stories and their experiences and

1451
01:01:07,650 --> 01:01:05,829
who knows we might be able to find

1452
01:01:09,150 --> 01:01:07,660
somebody out there that's that's going

1453
01:01:11,370 --> 01:01:09,160
to take you on to 100,000 bucks I'd like

1454
01:01:13,859 --> 01:01:11,380
to see that we'd like to see it too it's

1455
01:01:16,739 --> 01:01:13,869
been going for almost all over 28 well

1456
01:01:19,289 --> 01:01:16,749
30 years almost and in fact we may even

1457
01:01:20,940 --> 01:01:19,299
one that we might invite somebody into

1458
01:01:22,559 --> 01:01:20,950
the studio due to learn how to bend

1459
01:01:24,719 --> 01:01:22,569
spoons as well because know are you fun

1460
01:01:26,099 --> 01:01:24,729
I have seen that Lucas seen that nicca

1461
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:26,109
Cena tonight I'll tell you what it was

1462
01:01:31,529 --> 01:01:30,130
it was amazing Rachel and Richard thank

1463
01:01:33,479 --> 01:01:31,539
you very much for coming to the studio

1464
01:01:34,589 --> 01:01:33,489
to join us a lot not a problem thanks

1465
01:01:35,969 --> 01:01:34,599
very much quickly mentioned in the

1466
01:01:41,339 --> 01:01:35,979
meantime if people want to find out more

1467
01:01:45,299 --> 01:01:41,349
they can go to www skeptic zoom TV or ww

1468
01:01:47,579 --> 01:01:45,309
skeptics calm you wonderful thanks for

1469
01:02:02,289 --> 01:01:47,589
that it's 30 minutes and I another very

1470
01:02:07,390 --> 01:02:04,419
thank you for listening to this week's

1471
01:02:09,099 --> 01:02:07,400
episode of the skeptic zone and thank

1472
01:02:12,849 --> 01:02:09,109
you to those people who actually now

1473
01:02:14,559 --> 01:02:12,859
subscribing at 99 cents in episode 2 the

1474
01:02:17,140 --> 01:02:14,569
skeptic zone to help us keep the show

1475
01:02:21,130 --> 01:02:17,150
going you can do that via the paypal

1476
01:02:24,249 --> 01:02:21,140
links at ww skeptics on TV of course

1477
01:02:26,019 --> 01:02:24,259
this is purely voluntary if you want to

1478
01:02:28,949 --> 01:02:26,029
subscribe and helped us enormously if

1479
01:02:31,599 --> 01:02:28,959
not that's fine keep enjoying the show

1480
01:02:37,660 --> 01:02:31,609
until next week this is Richard Saunders

1481
01:02:40,059 --> 01:02:37,670
signing off from Sydney Australia you've

1482
01:02:44,679 --> 01:02:40,069
been listening to the skeptic zone visit

1483
01:02:49,270 --> 01:02:44,689
our website at WWF digs on TV the

1484
01:02:52,630 --> 01:02:49,280
comments contacts an extra video reports

1485
01:03:01,570 --> 01:02:52,640
I skin